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 Post subject: Sailing the ProAngler?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:56 am 
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
I really like what I am reading/seeing re the Pro Angler for fishing, but have a question. Has anyone actually tried SAILING the Pro Angler? Or tried both sailing and fishing this boat at the same time--with or without Sidekicks?? Dan? Anyone??

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:52 am 
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Check Road Runner's post about the PA - he has sailed it. We have also sailed it here at Hobie in our own testing, works great, probably better than any other model for balance due to the width. Maybe not the fastest (that would be the Adventure)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:29 am 
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Hey Jb,
Yea--thanks for the reminder. I didn't notice any PA sailing posts here when I first checked, but have since found several (including RR's) in the kayaking Forum. I figured the substantial beam of the PA would be an aid to sailing, and that seems to be the case from what I read.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:00 am 
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Ive been told, that normally you will fall out of a PA before it will capsize on you. Is that the case while sailing?

I know with my Revo, i use the AMA's if its gusting any at all because the thing will turtle in a heartbeat with a good gust.

How easy is it to turtle the PA?


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:09 am 
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Quote:
How easy is it to turtle the PA?


Quite stable and difficult to pull over. That is why people say you are more likely to simply fall out.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:39 pm 
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verrrrry interesting! I just bought a PA but it is in the Moss color. none of the sails would look good against that green! well, maybe the silver and white one.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:53 am 
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Location: Mobile, Alabama
atavuss wrote:
verrrrry interesting! I just bought a PA but it is in the Moss color. none of the sails would look good against that green! well, maybe the silver and white one.


If you bought one in the moss color (so did I!) why would you care what it looks like? LOL

Do they make a dagger board that fits where the drive goes? Seems that'd be better than jun leaving the drive fins down..


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:30 pm 
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kaferhaus wrote:
atavuss wrote:
verrrrry interesting! I just bought a PA but it is in the Moss color. none of the sails would look good against that green! well, maybe the silver and white one.


If you bought one in the moss color (so did I!) why would you care what it looks like? LOL

Do they make a dagger board that fits where the drive goes? Seems that'd be better than jun leaving the drive fins down..


the Moss color was the only one any dealers had within a reasonable drive. I did buy a yellow and blue sail for my son's yellow OB, have yet to use it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:17 am 
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Location: Mobile, Alabama
Sailed the PA last weekend in Mississippi sound. Wind was 10-15mph. I'm an experienced sailor having owned sailboats from 8' to 46' over 30yrs.

The PA sails fine on a reach except for the horrid weather helm. The poor rudder area and poor rudder control (a design issue that I hope Hobie is trying to remedy) contribute to this. The drive slot puts the fins too far forward to be very effective as a daggerboard (but this is a kayak and not a sailboat.... I can't see any way they could have put any of it in any other location.) were the fins a foot or so further back they'd be much more effective at reducing leeway.

These masts are of course made to be "bendy" to keep from stressing the hull so much... the problem is that also makes them very inefficient. A forestay would make this rig much more efficient as you'd be able to trim some shape into the sail. As is you cannot get any closer than about 70 degrees off the wind and even then the sail shape is so poor that making headway requires constant attention.

Downwind performance was only "ok" due to the poor rudder performance.

Even on a beam reach the PA only heeled about 10 degrees... and as bendy as the mast is I think you'd have to get into a bad situation with a combination of wind and waves to ever get close to capsizing it.

The Hobie rigging instructions tell you to just run the sheet through the pad eye at the stern..... while this works it causes way too much friction and makes sheet trimming much harder than it should be. Add a block to the pad eye and it's worlds better.

Bottom line is anything other than a reach or downwind the sail is pretty much useless. Even on a reach the weatherhelm is horrid (rudder). Downwind is the same story. but worse is the mast being so bendy that it simply spills air out over the top as it bends forward which further kills speed.

Threre seems to be a flat enough place on the prow to install a "chainplate" with a backer for installing a forestay on the PA. Not sure that I'll do it but a forestay would at least let you get some more efficiency out of the sail and still allow the mast to be "bendy" on a reach.

It was still "fun" but frustrating. If you just want to horse around then maybe it's worth the $320. If you're thinking of doing any serious sailing with it I'd not recommend it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:07 am 
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Kaferhaus, excellent review and a good reality check for anybody who might purchase a sail kit expecting the PA to turn into a "sailboat". The sail is too small, the mast is not rigid, there is no performance related rigging and the system is not optimally balanced. None of Hobie's sailing kayaks (except he Adventure Island) are really designed to compete with single purpose sailboats. But, as you said, it's fun.

IMO, the best use of the sail is in a hybrid mode where you're pedaling while sailing. As a supplement to pedaling, the sail allows you to gain some decent speed without having to pedal very hard. As a supplement to sailing, pedaling upwind makes windward performance viable. This combination works particularly well with the PA -- the extra speed improves both rudder authority and tracking. As an old sailor, it took me awhile to warm up to this concept and I was reluctant to mix sailing with pedaling. Eventually I learned, especially in lighter winds (and while tacking in heavier winds) that it makes an excellent combination.
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A couple of specific comments -- the mast is designed to be "bendy" in gusty winds as a shock absorber and safety valve to dump air for the narrower kayaks. On the sailing forum there are lots of rigging tips like stiffening the mast, adding a "boombat", reefing the sail, adding blocks and cleats, adding jibs, daggerboards, leeboards and even enlarging rudders. There is definitely an upward potential for the sail if one is interested in pursuing it.

The PA is decent at lean-steering -- by leaning (or heeling the boat) left, for example, the boat turns right. This is a pretty good thing when it comes to augmenting steering. When sailing though, any heeling accentuates the weather helm, so in heavier winds, keeping the boat as level as possible by hiking out really pays off in terms of rudder authority.

For any serious sailing there are probably better bargains around. But for adding some fun and versatility, extending your range or just relaxing out on the water, the sail kit is a nice option to have. 8)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:27 pm 
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In my experience adding a forestay on its own will not do much to improve the sail's performance, nor will adding just a backstay - I think you will find that what is needed is backstay(s) and forestay.

The reason you need a backstay is that the pressure in the sail is from behind the mast pushing the mast forwards and off to the lee side - this will have the effect of slackening any forestay.

The reason a backstay on its own has little effect is that the mast is so bendy that when it gets enough pressure in it to bend, with just a backstay the mast will still simply bend sideways as far as the backstay will allow it because there's no forestay to prevent it pulling backwards pretty much as far as it will go.

The good news is that it is not hard to add both forestay and backstays to the sail kit and not only will these improve the performance of the sail (by helping it keep its shape) they support the mast well in strong winds (no more bent/broken masts) and allow you to increase the sail area by running a jib.

In light winds I sail my Adventure with a stayed mast this way:
1. I have 2 micro blocks permanently attached to the head of the sail/mast top with a bit of light line.
2. Thru these I run a dual halyard/backstays (i.e. 2 light lines one thru each block - the forward fall of both lines form the forestay; the rearward fall of these lines make the backstays I use one on each side of the sail so I have 2 backstays - actually running backstays).
3. The forestay attaches to the head of a small jib which I haul up to the mast top to a stop in the line by hauling on both of the backstay falls.
4. The tack of the jb is attached to an 'outhaul' which pulls the sail out to the front of the boat; thus the luff of the jib substitutes for the normal forestay rigging (i.e. the sail is set 'flying').
5. The ends of both backstays are attached to padeyes beside the cockpit - attaching the ends of the backstays in this way does not tension the forestay at all because they are too long.
6. When sailing on any given tack I tension the windward backstay against the forestay by pulling it in and I release the leeward backstay so that it doesn't interfere with the sail.
7. When changing tack I
a) as the jib comes across I switch the jib sheet to the other side (I use a circular sheet and small plastic clamcleats as sheet 'winches' - there is very little tension in the sheet)
b) as the mainsail comes across I tension the slack backstay and then release the tight backstay so that now the pull of the sails on the mast is transmitted to the backstay on the other side.
8. Tension in the 'forestay' triangle can be adjusted by pulling/releasing the outhaul/tack.
9. When taking down the mast I drop & stow the foresail stowing the halyard/backstay lines beside the mast, tying them so that they stay there permanently & get rolled up inside the sail as it is furled round the mast - then they are there for next time, though actually it is easy enough to take the lines off.

It is quite possible to set up this entire arrangement without drilling a single hole (in an Adventure) and to rig & de-rig the whole thing whilst at sea (you need to set up a static outhaul, that's all). The only holes I have drilled are to place a padeye on the foredeck placed to better suit the jib I use. Everything else you need can be tied onto the boat with a bit of cunnng.

My jib is an off-the-shelf jib from a Topper sailboat - it is the smallest one you can get for a Topper I think & is about 1.5-1.8sqm so ~doubles the sail area)

This set up transforms the sailing performance of my Adventure in light winds - I use the mainsail only mast unstayed in 'stronger' winds and mainsail+jib with mast stayed in light winds. It would be easy to stay the mast without the jib simply by connecting the halyard directly to the outhaul to make the forestay triangle.

BUT....

Don't even think about it if you can't cope with vast amounts of line in the cockpit - there's so much that you need to be very methodical & it can get very tangled esp. round the Mirage pedals which could put you at serious risk of a bath if the conditions were marginal & you were trying to stow it all in a hurry/got whacked by a gust/squall/windshift.

Having read thru this I think it would be better explained with some pictures/photos - I will probably be out this WE & will see what I can do in that regard.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
G'Day Stobbo,
Thanks for that information. I'd be very interested to see pics! 8)
Also, if you are still sailing your AI in Adventure mode how you fitted the standard mast to to the AI mast receiver? I remember reading a post of yours about adapting an old windsurfer mast. Any chance of a pic of that?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Location: Auckland NZ
Stringy

see the new thread I have created about rigging a jib & running backstays


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:10 am
Posts: 90
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Hi all,

Just received my PA and can't wait to try it out. I plan on getting a sail this spring, I have NEVER sailed before. Is there a beginners guide to sailing this thing, perhaps it comes with the sail when you buy it? Is there anything I could download or a website?

Thanks

Troutbum


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Welcome Troutbum,
The FAQ's and Hobie support pages are worth reading. The sailboat pages have some great sailing tips.
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/index-kayak.html
This should come with your sail
http://static.hobiecat.com/2010_archive/support/pdfs/OutSailKit.pdf


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