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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Oh, like all the old fellers, maybe it's just that Karl's now in line for A cat. :wink:

Would have sworn though that the FX was little more like a small version of the A cat...

Quote:
pull the boards up a bit.


Yeah, I remember reading that bit of advice a while back and was fairly surprised. "Tripping over the boards" were words I recall.

Quote:
Cheese slicer shrouds:...


Ack! Too good of a graphic description. I don't think I will ever look at the shrouds the same way again!

However, it does bring up the common sense idea of adding something like "seat belts" to a cat. (I am not talking about tethered to the boat!) The foot strap is a good idea. Chicken lines are something that I have always thought made good sense. Just something to give you a fighting chance of not crashing forward out of control.

I had filed the Sunkist ad that I think Karl actually first put in a thread on chicken lines that I found while doing a search on them. Nice video. It shows the chicken line at .20 time clearest.

How to rig the chicken lines best is a riddle still for me...

And while I am on common sense!

It occurs to me that there are really three sail setups that all new to sailing ought to learn and that I have found no mention of entirely all in one place anywhere: 1.) the sail setup for power 2.) the sail setup for speed 3.) the sail setup for high winds or "depowering". I noticed with some interest the depowering sequence mentioned on the F16 thread on Catsailor; especially also in the post by W. Lints. This was something I was trying to get to on the FX tuning thread that ground to a stop...

Maybe can argue more on that later...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:29 am 
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JJ wrote:
Oh, like all the old fellers, maybe it's just that Karl's now in line for A cat. :wink:


Easy killer, I'm 28 8)

I really do love the FXone, it’s a great platform and sails very well. With such low numbers of people racing the boat it has one heck of a sandbagger Portsmouth number. The build quality is very good, and the design is very good. It’s also much tougher than people give it credit for. Its Achilles heel is the price tag when compared to similar boats. Actually its weak point is that Hobie sailors for the most part are a bunch of cheap asses. Some of the parts are ridiculously expensive, a new spinnaker from HCE is $1200, I can have Whirlwind make one for half that. That’s a lot of money for a sail that is realistically garbage after just a couple of regattas. My guess is that the two companies have an agreement to not produce parts for the others boats. I wish the entire boat was built in the states, that would knock at least 25% out of the price of the complete boat right off the bat. Five things raise the price for US customers:
1. Exchange rate to the EU is not in our favor, and when it fluctuates it just becomes more pronounced.
2. It probably has an import tax, (not knowing anything about international business I'm guessing here)
3. Shipping across oceans isn't cheap, and boats are bulky
4. HC US needs to make a profit on it, even if it is minimal
5. Dealers need to make a profit on it.
I don’t expect anyone to do anything for free, its just a factor.


For the last two years I've tried like hell to get the class to grow. I've even offered to pick up a second boat and let someone else locally race it with no takers to those I extended the offer to. So I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t wish to piss up anyone’s sleeve here, so the bulk of my reasons for potentially changing boats will stay semi private.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Don't let Karlos bull shi# you. He just wants to buy a NEW Fx/one. If he sells his (within our division) then there are two, and so on. Like cell division.
I know people looking for 17s so have the St. Paul guy (bock1) get ahold of me.
xanderwess@Yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Quote:
Karl Brogger wrote:
Easy killer, I'm 28 8)

wow you look like (censored) for your age!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:06 am 
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Quote:
I really do love the FXone, it’s a great platform and sails very well. With such low numbers of people racing the boat it has one heck of a sandbagger Portsmouth number. The build quality is very good, and the design is very good. It’s also much tougher than people give it credit for. Its Achilles heel is the price tag when compared to similar boats. Actually its weak point is that Hobie sailors for the most part are a bunch of cheap asses. Some of the parts are ridiculously expensive, a new spinnaker from HCE is $1200, I can have Whirlwind make one for half that. That’s a lot of money for a sail that is realistically garbage after just a couple of regattas. My guess is that the two companies have an agreement to not produce parts for the others boats. I wish the entire boat was built in the states, that would knock at least 25% out of the price of the complete boat right off the bat. Five things raise the price for US customers:

1. Exchange rate to the EU is not in our favor, and when it fluctuates it just becomes more pronounced.
2. It probably has an import tax, (not knowing anything about international business I'm guessing here)
3. Shipping across oceans isn't cheap, and boats are bulky
4. HC US needs to make a profit on it, even if it is minimal
5. Dealers need to make a profit on it.

I don’t expect anyone to do anything for free, its just a factor.


Yep. I imagine HC-USA might read this and say "yeah, haven’t we told you so in so many words time and again" at some of your points.

But I think you might underestimate how good you are with boat setup, Karl. Most people are not as good with mechanical problems, or want to be.

IMO, most boat builders seem to leave some problems unsolved/untweaked on their more complex boats – like the FX or the F16 or the N17 or whatever.

I assume that the reason for this is (drum roll) -- There are not enough buyers and therefore not enough money in it to do the extra tweaking. (Plus, a lot of folks buying this kind of boat just like to have it somewhat unfinished so they can “pimp their rides”.)

Your ability to polish out those problems is better than what most people have patience or ability for.

Partly for that reason, I think some people are turned off by these boats.

But, they can be turned on to buy these boats if another problem is first solved, IMO.

It is what I term the “European solution” to better cat sailing. IMO, the “European solution” is the faulty promise of a bigger and better techno boat. It promises to deliver more. But not toward tweaking user problems. It promises to deliver something hotter for racing and prob does. But it leaves another round of technical, user problems. Wooter’s F16, for example. I don’t think it has made the inroads that he says.

This is kind of like the cell phone I got that promises "internet connection". Yeah, it does but it stinks. So I can get Brand X's next offering...

So, the central problem is still tweaking out user problems – the thing that Karl is so good at. The "solution" I mention above is distraction...

Reminded me yesterday while sailing in wonderful 10-knot winds with my Wave that the metal wire shrouds are wrapped, not so much "cheese cutter" as Dan said. Still could hurt if pitched into, but less likely to cut the cheese – if you know what I mean…


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:50 pm 
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JJ, if you sail in salt water, or if you're replacing your rigging, do not get them covered. You just can't see if there is a problem. Plus you can't rinse off the wire inside of the cover. I'd bet 99% of the rigging failures are in a fitting somewhere, but why take the chance? But, they will rip you up should you go fling-ing into it wrong. I'm a fresh water sailor, so I just like to think of it as less weight and windage. :wink: Plus they're cheaper uncovered.

JJ wrote:
Wooter’s F16, for example. I don’t think it has made the inroads that he says.


I seriously doubt there is a faster growing multi hull class in the US right now, and I think the class was spawned in 03'?. F16's are popping up everywhere, and while some of the earlier models were crap, there is a couple of really good and well built designs out there now. I've only sailed one, but I've seen at least 4 different Formula 16's semi locally. I've never even seen another FXone, and they've been around as long as the F16's.

Come on HOBIE US, give us a F16 for around $15k!!! I know two people that for sure would buy one just so they can keep playing in the Hobie sandbox.


Last edited by Karl Brogger on Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:20 am 
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Karl Brogger wrote:
Come on HOBIE US, give us a F16 for around $15k!!! I know two people that for sure would buy one just so they can keep playing in the Hobie sandbox.


True, but therein lies the problem...the numbers. That's why HCC quit making the 18, 17 and 20.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:08 am 
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J_Eaton wrote:
True, but therein lies the problem...the numbers. That's why HCC quit making the 18, 17 and 20.



Yeah, but trimming all the things that are inflating the price and building it domestically would lower the FXone price into that ballpark probably. It needs to be competitive both in the showroom, and on the water. If you have a sexy, well performing boat that is comprably priced there's no reason Hobie wouldn't be stealing customers from Vectorworks, or AHPC. AHPC is based out of Australia, hulls are made in Indonesia somewhere, and the Viper is still in that price range. Infusions are made in S. Africa? I think? and they're around $17k new?

Did HCC stop making the 17,18,20 because they were no longer profitable, or was it because no one was buying them? I seem to remember the thread about the demise of the H20 saying that they sold only a handfull of them the last couple of years. They're selling the (censored) outta the rotomolded boats, and the H16 class with its fanatical following won't die for a very long time. Racing these things at this point and time is a dying endevour. But those who still do so have moved on to different boats, most of which are spinnaker boats. Not everyone wants to be on a H16, and with the Wildcat being $21k its hard to justify the added $4k over the cost of other F18's every couple of years just to stay within the HCA. I think its great that HCC is doing well with the kayaks and rotomolded models, I also think it is unfortunate they don't produce a modern boat orientated toward the racers, but business is business and I'm sure the owners/shareholders aren't involved just to see the smiles on children's faces. I know I wouldn't be.

For the racers Formula/box rule classes are the future.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:10 am 
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Quote:
Did HCC stop making the 17,18,20 because they were no longer profitable, or was it because no one was buying them?
I believe that's one in the same, they even re-introduced the 17 after ceasing production and the droves of supposed buyers never ponied up.

I'll predict you and I will die before the Hobie 16 class. Look at all the other highly sucessful, "out dated", designs at the top of the most popular sailing classes.

If your generation (based on population) continues to be involved in sailing, and buying product, just maybe there's a chance for a HCC made formula boat. You have to realistically look at the cash outlay. A new Hobie 16 is affordable to a good percentage of your generation, any formula boat is a stretch and definately not entry level platforms. You have to "hope" that a significant number enjoy sailing enough to buy their own boat, by a catamaran, feel the need for speed and want to advance beyond what is currently available from HCC. This would likely take several years to develop, and until it happens and numbers of formula boats are significant, building kayaks, and a few beach rental cats, is smart business.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:58 am 
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J_Eaton wrote:
I believe that's one in the same

See, I don't. If something isn't profitable in my cabinet shop I do one of two things, or combination thereof. I either raise the price, or I figure out a better way to do it. Either through tooling upgrades or a change in materials. I'm looking at a $14,000.00 machine right now so I can damn near double my drawer production. For a shop that only has about $80k worth of equipment, that’s a lot to bite off, but it’ll pay in the long run.

J_Eaton wrote:
If your generation (based on population) continues to be involved in sailing, and buying product, just maybe there's a chance for a HCC made formula boat. You have to realistically look at the cash outlay. A new Hobie 16 is affordable to a good percentage of your generation, any formula boat is a stretch and definitely not entry level platforms. You have to "hope" that a significant number enjoy sailing enough to buy their own boat, by a catamaran, feel the need for speed and want to advance beyond what is currently available from HCC. This would likely take several years to develop, and until it happens and numbers of formula boats are significant, building kayaks, and a few beach rental cats, is smart business.


The H16 is a good place to start, that's for sure. I by no means had it mastered before I stepped onto a modern catamaran, but the new designs aren’t any more mystical then the Hobie 16. Heck, I still don’t understand what halyard tension has to do with anything on that boat, but apparently it’s the world. It doesn’t matter what boat you get, if you have no clue it’s gonna be a tough learning curve. In fact once you know the basics an F18, (or my boat two up, cause I run outta hands), can be more easily sailed in big wind. The spinnaker makes it damn near idiot proof going down wind. Flying a hull too high? Turn down. Not high enough, turn up. Most of the time when I capsize it’s from the transitions of hoisty/snuffing the spinnaker, that’s when having someone driving comes in handy. Look at Kelly, less than a month at the helm and she’s running it really well in 20+mph winds.

The obvious answer is for HCC to do what they're doing, and for people like me to go else ware. Then the HCA can change its name to the HC16A, because that's the route it is going. The FXone's don't have that high of numbers, and I'd bet the number of "illegal" Tigers is greater than the number of OD legal Tigers. Meaning there are people out there doing things that are legal F18, but not Tiger legal. If there is no other offerings, sooner or later they’ll be gone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:11 pm 
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54 Hobie 16's in Kingston and out of that number there were multitudes of Olympic and Past Class Champions...not just past Hobie 16 champions.
I think an F16 from Hobie would be really cool...but if you want to race and race against some of the very best in this region, the H16 is the boat to sail. If you want to determine the best engineering/set up then there are definitely other mfg.'s boats to purchase...but do you every really know how good you are on those boats? You can take a unique boat to a OPEN event and sure...use a pre-determined handicap number...but I will never believe that kind of racing matches the One Design Mano e' Mano sailing like you get with a Hobie 16.

At Kingston, we had some tough wind to figure out...and personally; I never did until the wind came up on Friday...so there are adjustments people can make on a Hobie 16. But where the pavement hit the road was starting on a line with sooo many boats and THEN trying to round through a gate with half of them.....I thought I had some skill until this past week. Now I realize we in D7 could ALL use more training.

On another note. Karl; if you buy a 2nd FX1, I'd be happy to sail it at Hava's! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:18 am 
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CycloneCat wrote:
but do you every really know how good you are on those boats?


sure you do. When you race an open event with a PN# of 68.5 up against boats that almost all have lower ratings and you do well boat for boat, you know you're doing well. Race 8 this past weekend I crossed the line in 5th or 6th, which corrected into a 2nd place finish for that race. I knew I was sailling really well that whole race. The goal is still the same, beat the other guy. Sailing handicap isn't my favorite, but F18 & F16 have really close numbers, (like 18 seconds on a 30 min race), and the I20 isn't far off either.

Quote:
Now I realize we in D7 could ALL use more training.


Robbie Daniel is doing a training camp in Racine Wisconsin Aug 5,6,7. I learned alot when I did it in Florida last month, I hope to learn alot again in two weeks. I think its $250 a boat for the 3 days. Contact Chris Blake, 414-531-4525, toothdigger (at) gmail (dot) com if you're interested.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Let me make one correction, the 17 mast is nowhere near as heavy as the FX mast--it's a pig, especially with the diamond spreader. And it HAS to be turned completely sideways to be stepped. I certainly agree that one of the big problems with the FX is rigging time, especially with the delron trap lines which are always tangled. And price is a big issue. MY issue is with the dagger boards single handing coming in to the beach, especially in heavy air.

But sailing? There's no comparison, the FX is a better boat in every way, as has been said, especially if you take someone along. I like the fact that with the dagger boards, it tacks RIGHT NOW in any wind. Can't do that with a 17.

If you're a Fleet racer, you may be the bastard step-child in a 17 fleet. We have a bunch of 17's in 61, but only one FX. Wish there were more. Fortunately the guys let me play with them!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:10 pm 
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FX293 wrote:
especially with the delron trap lines which are always tangled.



Take a bungee and hook it into both of the trap lines, then take the center of the bungee and have it catch on the bottom of the turnbuckle for the diamond wires.

I don't ever want to go back to wire trap lines, spectra/dyneema is the only way to fly, cheaper, easier to maintain, and they last just as long. Plus they're stupid easy to make yourself.


Where are you from?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:08 am 
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Just my smart alecky opinion,
Karl is a young man that wants the latest greatest go fast goodie on the market .....
Who cares if there is a fleet to sail in !
Sorry Karl ....

And, in All Honesty, as a Original Hobie 18 Enthusiast, I understand that Karl thinks I am a Dinasour.
He's wrong, I'm just so old my first pet was a dinasour, When I started Sailing, the Dead sea was only sick, and when God said, "let there be light" I flipped the switch.
There, that should pretty much cover the old man jokes, but I have no doubt Karl will find a new and different way to trash talk me.
Oh yeah, I'm also so old, my first job was being the busboy at the last supper ....
Ok Karl, your turn !

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