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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:41 am 
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Looking for spinnaker gear or advice on compatible gear for my Hobie 21SE. Would the setup from a Miracle 20 work? Also loooking for any spare practice sails (Sq top main) as well as a bucket of spare parts, pins and castings that we all seem to accumulate with each of our boats.

Also looking on feedback on who's building the best cat sails out there these days. Bare with me, I've been a OD keelboat racer all my life so this is a bit of uncharted territory for me.

Lastly, we're currently organizing a distance race for July 2011 that will cover the 1000kms + (625 mi) around Vancouver Island in the Pacific Northwest. If you know any extreme distance cat racers, pass it on. Here's the developing map:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&h ... 98&t=h&z=7

Thanks,

David Gauci
H21SE #195

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:54 am 
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Location: North Bend, WA
Dave I just purchased a 21SE here in Washington state and it came with a spinnaker. I have not had a chance to rig yet, but have asked for anyone with pictures to post. Once I have the sail out and rigged I can take measurements and pictures. Hopefully this weekend will not be raining and I will be able to play with the boat. Please see my post on rigging advice and let me know if you can answer any of the questions. You can also email me at spesce at pacland dot com.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Location: Toms River NJ
Off topic a bit.....How do you like the 21? I noticed you just got it this year. Did you fly the spin this summer? Was it easy? Thank!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Hi,

This was actually my 3rd season with it. To sum it up, "I LOVE THIS BOAT!!" I'd spent 30 years helming OD Keelboats like J's, Etchells, Melges, Farr 40's, 11 metres and such and this boat kicks ass on all of them. When we were looking for a cat, I knew that I wanted as big a one that I could sail on my own but could still be loaded up for distance work. Being 50, I also liked the idea of the wings for added leverage, comfort and dryness, all of which are a big benefit. I tend to use it more for recreation instead of racing these days but I'm so impressed with this boat in big water, that it inspired me to start organizing a race around Vancouver Island in 2011. It will be over 1000 kilometers around some of the most remote and scenic areas the world has to offer. A few times a year, I'll take advantage of a nice weather system and take off on a 100+ mi trip alone and the boat covers distance beautifully and tracks like long skiis....really long skiis. I've rigged it with a righting pole so I'm self sufficient and carry the full host of Spot Trackers,, handheld VHF, GPS and a host of other safety trinkets.

Now this is my first cat so I have little to compare to. I've been out on the odd H16 and 18's but never long enough to really feel them out and I usually wasn't driving them as i was out for a quick boot as crew. It carries a fair bit of power in the rig (33 'stick)but its easily powered up or down. With the wings, the additional righting moment is considerable so keeping her somewhat flat and under control in heavy air is not a big deal. In fact, we have to work it pretty hard to get one hull out of the water with 400 lbs out on the wire. We've been out in nice big North Pacific rollers and the bows just slice through the waves and the boat usually has plenty of power to just blow right through them.

Regarding the spinny, I looked for used gear this summer and couldn't find any so over the winter, I'll just put on a Murrays pole and snuffer and pick up a new spinny. I'll let you know when that takes place but I'll certainly enjoy having additional horsepower for sailing a bit deeper.

So all in all, I'm really impressed with it. Its big, powerful and really easy to sail so for me it fits.

David Gauci
H21SE #195

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Since it's not raced as a class any more, a longer spinnaker pole than stock makes sail handling a lot easier. With the longer pole it's easy to pull the sail through whereas with the stock short pole it was easier to let the clew go around the front but it required a little longer sheet.

Pull the tack line out, pull the halyard up, sheet in. If the boat gets overpowered in puffs, bear off a bit to keep your feet under you, until your crew learns a bit of sail handling.

To drop: turn the sheet rachet off ( I have remotes on mine but method will vary with type of rachet), let the sheet go, pull tack back in and crew gathers foot, ease halyard-skipper's job (dropped overboard trailing behind is the most foolproof method to keep it from tangling), stuff into bag. It' really not hard at all but best learned in lighter winds.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:37 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
I would think that an F-18 style spinnaker setup would be preferable to the original stock 21SE system.

Continuous halyard / retreival line and a snuffer make setting / dousing a one-man job. Harken Ratchamatic sheet blocks eliminate the need to turn the ratchets on/off, since they only engage under tension.

The original spinnaker on the 21SE was very full - almost like a symmetrical monohull 'chute. Modern catamaran spinnakers are very flat and can be carried much higher into the wind w/o loss of downwind performance.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:06 pm 
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We tried some of the auto rachets-Ohlens I think- back when we were sailing this boat. They would probably work fine normally, but my wife, at 110 lbs., even fairly strong for her size, ended up with two rachets on each side. The normal setup was one under the wing which made the sheet turn a little over 90 degrees to the crew. In any wind at all it was not enough friction for her to not get tired holding the sheet. With the auto ratchet in the rear position directing the sheet from the sail back up to the forward block under the wing, it worked fine unless there was some sort of tangle or anything interupting the free flow of the sheet out. She could easily handle the sheet any time we could fly it with a ratchet turned on both in back and under the wing. You could hold it easily but when it was blowing hard enough to need both ratchets on it would still ease freely. The ratchet under the wing just stayed on all the time except for light wind and I fabricated a lever on the rear ratchet controlled by two lines (on and off) run through a vinyl tube behind the rear crossbar and up under the opposite wing to control it's setting from the opposite side of the boat. When we got ready to jibe or douse, she would pull the line (only reqired maybe 1 1/2" pull with light pressure) to turn the ratchet off and turn the other one on when she crossed to the other side.

It worked good for us, but for a big burly crew it would not be necessary of course.

We sewed two bags on the front of our tramp for the kite. They are plenty big, have mesh on the rear to release any water, have a big half circle hoop on the front formed by plastic rods that is held shut with a length of shockcord so it's easy to slam them shut. Pulling the sail out opens them.

Dousing systems have improved a lot now but very soon after these boats came out they tried one that everyone called toilet seats. The opening was vertical (facing forward, not up) and it was very difficult to pull the sail back in. No one used one more than once. I'm sure one of the newer systems would be nice but it's really not bad handling it manually.

The boat is kind of heavy and doesn't always benefit by sailing it high downwind. If I was to sail it much, I'd carry two chutes. One full for going low (found to be the fastest for the 21 in the Prosail series) and one flat for going high ( like mine made by North which was good for only a couple of races in San Fran Bay. I've sailed both and there is a noticeable difference. It would be pretty easy with our current setup with two bags on the tramp.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:25 pm 
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The Harken Carbo Ratchamatics are much different than the Ochsen blocks.

The Ratchamatic engages only under sheet tension (you can adjust the setting). When you release the line, the block freewheels. The Ochsen was like a window shade - you had to pull it in a bit before it would release. They work great in mainsheet systems for the 14 and 17 where you have to dump a lot of sheet in a tack.

Most F-18s use two per side - one mounted on the inner edge of the hull, roughly at the shroud location and another on the front crossbar (sissy blocks). The reason for the forward blocks is to give more grip to the ratchets in the rear - instead of taking a 45° turn around the block, the line takes a 180° turn. Some burly crews don't need the second set of ratchets in the front - but they still use blocks there.

Downwind driving techniques have evolved considerably since the late 80's / early 90's, as have snuffer systems. The SNU system would probably work well on a 21, the only issue being size.

I don't think anybody was flying hulls downwind with the 21s, which is the norm for modern spinnaker cats. Would be interesting to see how 21s behave with a modern spin rig these days.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Location: North Bend, WA
I have the original spinnaker with my 21SE. One interesting item is the upper spinnaker tang is about midway up the comptip, which has been discussed on many forums about where to mount this upper tang and should not be mounted on the comptip.
I have not figured out the halyard system as I do not have additional cleats on the mast for straight up pulling. Therefore, I am asking for advice. I have 4 cleats on the front beam. One micro cam cleat for the furler, one larger cam cleat on the port side near the furler cleat for ???, and two bulleye swivel cleats on each side. I was thinking that the swivel cleats could be used for the spinnaker halyards, but not sure if they can take the upward pulling force. Ideas???

Should I add a cleat to the mast? other suggestions?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:18 pm 
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We have something similar to this mounted low on the mast for the halyard>
http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/me ... =BIGBULLET

The single swivel cam next to the one for the furler is most likely for the tackline on the spinnaker. All you do is pull the spinnaker tack out to the end of the pole with it.

I have no idea what the other two are for. I wouldn't use them for the spinnaker halyard. They were probably someone's idea of what they needed. We liked to keep lines on deck to a minumum and even rigged up micro blocks up inside the wing tramp lacing so the trapeze shockcord was out of the way of everything (that's in one of my pictures you uploaded for me).

I never saw one of the spinnaker halyard tangs fail and I've seen some flying kites in very strong wind. Including one on San Francisco Bay in something over 25 knots-the day before racing just sailing the boats from assembly at the Presidio beach to Pier 39. A puff pitchpoled them while both were out on the wire and when the boat was righted the only thing left of the chute was the red, green, and blue tapes around the edge with the rest of the sail draped all over everything-also only about a 1/4 mile in front of an aircraft carrier with the crew lined up on the deck. Others played around in even stronger wind one day at Annapolis with again some pretty spectacular pitchpoles but not a single failed tang.

The "stock" chute was very small compared to what folks ended up using. ProSail had a Minimum required size, so they ended up being HUGE. The tack could easily be pulled all the way to the back of the wing even with the longer poles. I've used the kind of system MBounds is talking about on smaller planing hull monohulls, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with pulling down a chute as big as these with a takedown line. I'd be afraid I'd end up running over it with my wife handling it. Gathering in the foot behind the main and stuffing it goes fairly quickly but of course not like pulling it in while still on the wire.

Try yours in light wind. It's not that hard to deal with and no question adds lots of horsepower.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Thanks Tom -

I do have two swivel cleats underneath the boom. I have been using one for the downhaul which is 3/16" line and the other is unused. I was about to rig the downhaul utilizing both cleats and run each end to each wing to allow for downhaul adjustment from either side from the trapeze. Since the downhaul has been my savior from being over powered the last few times I have been sailing, it seems that this adjustment should be able to be done on the fly to maximize the power band. Secondly, I did not think that a 3/16" line would be adequate for the spi halyard. I will look tonight but I am not sure a 1/4 line would go thru this pulley. What size should the spinnaker halyard be? The Spi halyard pulley appears to be sized for a 3/8"-1/2" line.

Quote:
The single swivel cam next to the one for the furler is most likely for the tackline on the spinnaker. All you do is pull the spinnaker tack out to the end of the pole with it.
My tackline is located within the pole and also is cleated on the pole. Did the original spinnakers all utilize poles? The swivel cleats may pull the tack of the spinnaker to each side as I cannot see the pole moving at all.

Once I figure this out I will fly the spinnaker. I can't wait. It appears to be similar to a monohull spinnaker as it is large and very full. As I have a difficult time keeping my speed downwind, this should be the ticket to the downwind thrill.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:53 pm 
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I'll bet one of the swivel cams was used for the halyard. I mounted ours to one side to prevent fouling on anything. I think we did use 3/16s for the halyard. There's not much effort required to pull it up. You pull it up behind the main while going downwind. We used StaySet X since it was a fairly stiff line and didn't tangle easily. Our downhaul was just one line and adjusted from the tramp- again to simplify.

I remember one boat not using a pole and pulling the tack from side to side but now everyone uses a pole and it doesn't move. That makes it MUCH easier to handle than a big monohull chute where you have to jibe the pole. The only thing that's done with it is to pull the sail out to the end.

After class racing, and even before it ended by unanimous aggreement, everyone started using a pole 2' longer than the stock pole. It made everything about flying the chute better. Mine is an old broken carbon fiber windsurfing mast.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:26 pm 
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I have both fiberglass or aluminum windsurfing masts that I could use to make a longer pole. The aluminum would be easier to rivet cleats and other items onto. I was going to use the chute first to see if the recreational sailing I am doing would allow the existing pole to suffice. If using the shorter pole you must let the spinnaker clew to go around the front and not between the tack and forestay? I do not mind a longer sheet but do not want the spinnaker to twist or rap around the forestay.

I was also going to use other for a righting pole. I saw on an earlier post that dgauci uses a righting pole and wondered how long the pole needed to be to solo right his 21SE. I also want to know how he attached the pole to the dolphin striker. As I will most likely not sail solo, this would add to my comfort zone of sailing with beginner crew.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:27 pm 
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I have another old broken windsurfing mast rigged for a righting pole but I've never even tried it. The boat is very stable and easy to sail and we've never even been close to flipping it including getting airborne over swells off Wrightsville Beach. The only time I've ever seen them go over is by being pitchpoled in way to much wind to have the chute up. We save those conditons for the short boards. I used some old mast foot for the pole to dolphin striker.


The trick to using a fiberglass pole is to be able to easily add fairleads on it to keep the line from dangling. 3M 8010 (used by Tour Vans for golf club heads) will stick the plastic fairleads to the fiberglass without having to do any fiberglass finishing other than on the end to hold the block mount in place, but then the lines go from the bows to the block itself so the pole only holds it out there.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Wow..this is fantastic! Looks like there are a lot of old 21SE sailors out there with a lot of great input.

I'm looking at my 21SE as a bit of a science experiment that I can do a complete re-rig without any fear of being tossed from a regatta for non-compliance. That being said, the sky is the limit in terms of making this boat exactly what I want.

Keep in mind that I won't be doing any round the buoys racing with this boat. The prime objective for re-rigging this boat is to take it around Vancouver Island in July of 2011. Its a 650 mile trip around the island with over 300 miles being exposed to open ocean in a very remote area so I need it simple and tough. Speedy tacks, spin hoists and douses are not as much a priority as is being able to stay out there and have most lines within reach.

I've been picking up hardware over the past 6 months prepping to totally strip the boat down this winter to make the following mods.

Main Halyard:
I've always hated the main halyard system on this boat. It comes out at the base of the mast and doubles back up to the swivel block to port and always is a pain in the butt. Heaven forbid that the halyard should get squeezed back up the little section of luff track down there as it can be a pain to get out...especially in heavy air. Has anyone tried the Harken 299 or 141 swivels with cleats? I got the 141 for this purpose but have yet to install it. Seems like a nice clean solution to me and cleans up the base of the mast considerably.

Spinny Halyard:
Looking at a possible solution for the spinny halyard, would it not make sense to do the same as on my J24's and throw a double set of cam cleats about 7' up the mast and double end the halyard to the retriever line? Comments?

Spinny Sheets:
Spin Sheets: Harken Carbo Rachamatics at the rear of the wings. Can anyone suggest sheet diameter/material thats the hot item these days?

Cunningham:
I picked up a Harken 391 double ended system so we can tweak the power from the trap if necessary.

Spinnaker Pole:
Looking at the 12' pole at Murrays with the SNU system

Wings:
Add a few cam cleats to the outside edge as line holders for the cunningham and main traveller. Not expecting these to bear loads, just to keep them close.

Install flat waterproof storage pockets with clear window to keep charts, GPS, SI's and such as well as a few other small storage pockets for other gear.

Tramp and wing tramps:
Replace

Standing Rigging:
Replace every piece

Running Rigging:
Replace all

Storage:
Add two ports for additional stowage access

Centerboards:
Replace springs with bungees

Helm:
New rudders


So thats what I'm thinking thus far. Please keep in mind that I'm an old OD keelboat racer so its just my initial thoughts based on what I know. Please pipe up if you have any better ideas as I've very open to suggestions.

Thanks to all, keep the inspiration flowing

And come up and do my race in 2011!!!

David Gauci
H21SE # 195

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