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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:57 pm 
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I don't understand why the main halyard doubles back up to another block on the mast. Ours just comes out the bottom and is stowed in the tramp lacing at the front. Squeeze the sail feeder jaws together until the top of the sail barely goes into it and the sail will go all the way up without having to touch anything but the halyard.

I wouldn't want cleats on the edge of the wing. We do have footstraps at the back.

Main traveler control is the end of the mainsheet which is already in the skippers hand.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Location: Denver & Lake McConaughy NE
I fly one of the big monsters on my boat but I'd switch to the newer style in a minute if I had the dough. If you still need some rigging ideas let me know. There is another 21se out here and he has a big spin sail as well. I can tell you how both boats are setup.

If you are ever looking for a new main or Jib I had a great experience with Skip Elliot at Elliot Pattison sails in newport beach, CA. Great guy and they build a REALLY nice sail at a nice price. I imagine they build spinnakers too.

Dan
H21SE #270
Denver/Lake Mac

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Nacra 5.8 #656 "Una Más"
Capri Cyclone
No longer own Hobie 21SE #270
Denver & Lake McConaughy, Nebraska


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Location: North Bend, WA
Main halyard:
Main halyard uses a aussie ring and therefore no need to cleat. Just coil and stow extra halyard in trampoline bag pocket.

Spinnaker halyard:
I have two pivot swivel cleats like your 141 and 299 but Spring brand mounted on the mast below the boom. The upper one I use for the cunningham. The lower one has metal teeth within carbon block and no eye strap, I believe this would be for the spinnaker and I will review next time mast is up.

Spinnaker sheets
I believe my sheets are 7/16".

Wings
I would not mount cleats. you can always attach bungie to end to sheet to keep in place. If you have the main sheet in hand you technically have the main sheet in hand. If needed I have crew help keep separated or hold that end of the sheet.

Storage pockets:
I have a trampoline bag that is the coolest thing. It is 6'x2' and is a mesh bag. One of the two outside 2'x2' big pockets hold 4 trapeze harnesses for triple trap and the other holds 3-4 wetsuits. The other 2'x2' inside areas one side has two pouches and the other has three even sized pockets. These hold main halyard, jibhalyard, camera, tools, bow line, extra righting line, righting bag, gloves and maps. It has very easy access, I also place a throw cushion underneath. Image

I place long term storage in the hulls and try to not access oftten while under sail.

I need to talk with you about your righting pole.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:50 pm 
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Hmmm. I had just expected that what I got was a stock H21 setup. On mine, the halyard comes back up to a swivel cleat to port of the gooseneck. It never made any sense to me why they would have done that when much more simple setups would accomplish the same result. It gets caught up all the time. I just assumed that the previous owner who now has a Tiger knew what he was doing so I didn't question. Perhaps I should RTFM.

I had a brain fart with the traveller...good point. I think that need comes more from when I'm sailing alone. Seems to me that I often end up cursing myself out for the occasional dropped, and more occasionally "forgotten" line that you realize only after getting out there, or the times when you need a few secs to check the GPS, open a beer, light one up...whatever. Solo sailing on lighter days would be my prime use for those cleats. Tho I agree with you, when sailing with crew, the need would be considerably less. I sail alone 50% of the time so I think they'd prove handy.

Awesome Tom. You have me questioning my setup. I learn a lot from these.

Here's a pic of what the setup looks like
Image
Thanks,

David

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Yeah, you don't need to run it up to that other swivel cam. I expect the original owner did this because he was fighting getting the sail up. I'm also wondering if the swivel mechanism on the bullet block doesn't also cause the block to be a little too far from the front side of the sail track, which could also cause some binding problems. Mine just has a bullet block-no swivel-attached in the same place as yours-works just fine.

Seriously, if the sail feeder is adjusted correctly the sail will go right up without having to touch anything but the halyard. I use a 3/16" Yale Light line and keep a ClamCleat Tugcleat on the end of it to save soft, wet hands. When hoisting the sail on the beach or anyplace with plenty of room behind the boat, I just grab the TugCleat and walk straight out behind the boat to pull the main up. To hoist on the tramp, the TugCleat just gets jumped down the line after each pull. The sail feeders never come on the boats adjusted correctly. The assembler always needs to squeeze the jaws together to fine tune. Adjusted correctly it really doesn't even take that much tension to pull it right up.

Before attaching the halyard to the sail let it hang freely so any twist will come out and then twirl it three rotations so the ring automatically rotates back towards the hook side and it will jump right on. The stock ring and loose twist shackle work just fine. I tie the halyard to the ring with one half hitch held by a simple stopper knot and put the knot towards the side of the mast away from the hook. I think people forgot how to do this causing the reasoning to take the flapper off the hook.


Noticing your cunningham, I had forgotten what I did to mine until I just went and looked at it. I went to a bullet cheekblock on each side-replacing the little bearingless ones, a triple at the sail-deadended lower down the mast, and a swivel cam with bullet block below the boom (don't remember the part#), so Pam could easily adjust it and it works smoothly and easily.

Also since this thread is about spinnaker gear, one thing you need is an antifouling line going from outboard and forward on the wing to the pole attachment points on the front of the hulls to keep the spinnaker sheet or sail from getting tangled on the front of the wing. Most people just tied one on but I put a small grommet in the wing tramp where it needed to be and pass a very small no-stretch line through it for a clean edge.

We use 3/8" Marlow Marston for the spinnaker sheet. I'm sure there may be newer and fancier things now, but this line is light and stays light since it doesn't hold water-it floats too, and is easy on the hands.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:28 am 
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Location: North Bend, WA
The assembly manual and the brochure pictures of the 21SE shows the flying the spinnaker without using a pole. Most likely the two swivel cleats were used for this setup. The following link also show a method for using one of these cleats for raising the spinnaker. http://www.hobiecat.com/support/pdfs/40998010.pdfThis looks easy after you have the lengths correct.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Yeah, I like the combined tackline and halyard as it would save about 3 seconds around the bouys. I never saw a boat with the ratchet at the back of the wing rigged on top. Every boat I've seen has it under the back edge with the sheet led forward to another block under the wing so the sheet comes out not too far back behind where the jib sheet is. I use a modified mast tang for 16s, and such, shroud attachment that allows the back block to receive the sheet and turn it back forward without dragging on the wing anywhere. I'm afraid only having one block at the back on top would allow the sheet to get under foot too much. Also, we use two ratchets on each side as there can be a LOT of sheet pressure from a really big chute with no purchase.

edited to add: I talked to Pam about it and she says she'd rather keep the tackline and halyard separate. She's worried about tangling issues not being worth saving the extra few seconds. On planing hull boats like International 14 and 49er it makes a lot of sense because the sails are smaller and it's important to keep the boat planing by staying out on the trap as long as possible. I'm sure it would be different if you have a 200 lb. weight lifter as crew. She reminded me that we had tried a reverse purchase system for the halyard to theoritically get the sail up faster but it required too much pull for her and we actually lost time because of it so went back to simple. When racing a catamarran there is so much more importance on keeping things smooth and the rudders pointed in the right direction with no stutters, that it makes saving seconds here and there of lesser importance.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Location: Loganville, GA
David, in the photo you posted, your mast looks like mine did last week.

Mine looks great now.

Get some "Penetrol" from the paint section in your local hardware store.

Wet a rag with it, rub it into the black anodized metal, to both clean and let it penetrate

then, using a clean rag wipe it all away, as much as possible.

Your mast will look great, and it will also bead water. It's wild how much that quick process changed the overall look of my 21SE. It did it to the mast, boom, trampoline tracks and crossbars.

Andy

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=> Hobie Cat 14 <=
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Quote:
The original spinnaker on the 21SE was very full - almost like a symmetrical monohull 'chute. Modern catamaran spinnakers are very flat and can be carried much higher into the wind w/o loss of downwind performance.

I'm glad to hear somebody say this. I never had any luck with my stock spinnaker. If I headed up a little it would always start to collapse. If I went deeper and kept it full I went slow.
The sails that they use on modern, lightweight catamarans are not, in my humble opinion, spinnakers at all but reachers (big jibs). They are designed to take advantage of a catamarans much faster performance reaching vs. running.
Not trying to stir anything up I just always thought that if I was ever going to get another spinnaker it would look much more like what they use on a N6.0 or something.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:03 am 
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Location: Columbus, Indiana
I have an old Prosail spinaker with the Salem cigarette logo stuck to it that works nice down wind but that the only way it works.Please show me your up to date spinaker sails,gearand rigging so I can dream about an update.What kind of spinaker pole is best?How much does the entire new systems cost?Any good photos to entice me?
Bill 404 21SE

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:25 pm 
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The first year of the ProSail circuit, ProSail furnished the spinnakers and they were like little bubbles, pretty deep, but not very big, and no one used a pole. After that you could run what you brung but there was a minimum size requirement only and everyone used a pole, so the sizes got HUGE. Those races were around pretty small courses close to shore for spectators and the jibe mark almost never required a close reach. Lower was almost always faster in those particular races since the courses were so short. I had a fairly flat North kite and it only really paid off in a couple of races in the whole series. Pam and I had planned to carry two the next year, one for high and one for low, but the circuit was closed down. They all had the ProSail Salem logo on them regardless of maker or design.


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