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 Post subject: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:20 pm 
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Posts: 8
I have owned a 8 yr old Mirage (Outback?) and finally took the time last Fri. to take it out in the bay. Have had it out in my fresh water lake only 3 x's since I bought it. It came with a sail kit and I tried it out one of those days in the lake, and could see it could use some outriggers for stability. My main concern, is the post where you insert the the mast, seems to be pretty thin plastic. I want to beef it up by wrapping it in a alunimum sleeve and marine tex. But marine tex doesn't like sticking to polyethyene. Any suggestions on what I could use as an alternate?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 484
Location: Auckland NZ
I have sailed an outback, 2x adventures and an outfitter extensively (without stabilisers) - never had a problem with the mast-base ! Don't recollect seeing a problem with a mast base failing being reported in these forums either.

Basically the combination of the boat leaning and the mast bending serve to reduce the amount of leverage that is/can be exerted on the mast base. Sure if you put outriggers on it the boat will lean less but the mast will still bend, though it will do it a bit more than if the boat were leaning as well.

Outriggers or not you probably aren't going to be going out in anything like strong winds, so again, the amount of leverage on the mast base will be restricted: by the sailable wind-range (pretty light winds only).

My guess is that, if the boat were prevented from leaning at all thus leaving the mast to absorb all the leverage of the wind in the sail, the mast would probably fail before the mast base would. I have read reports of people sustaining damage to their masts in strong winds: not sure how they have managed this based on my sailing experience, but the answer may lie in me being less gung-ho in stronger winds or in their use of stabilisers to prevent the boat from leaning or them sailing in a loaded double which, being wider & having more ballast, leans substantially less and requires more mast-bending wind-power to get going under sail.

Personally I wouldn't stress unduly about the mast base if I were you (unless this thread suddenly turns up a whole lot of replies from owners who have had their mast-base fail, that is). Use common sense and prudence at all times when sailing these tiny little boats but particularly when sailing far off shore; basically this means "take the sail down before the winds threaten to overpower sailor, mast or boat". If the mast-base should break for whatever reason you'll still make it back to shore in 1 piece (in all probability) & a replacement won't cost a lot.

Should the worst happen I imagine that if anything the most likely point of failure would be where the tube is attached to the bottom of the boat rather than the tube itself.

Just my NZ$0.02


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:04 am 
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Thanks for all great info! I will try sailing more ,with light wind, to master techniques. One other problem I didn't mention, is the plastic around post is peeling. It has a vertical slit and has begin to separate. Would fiberglass be necessary? And can we send pics in this forum?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 484
Location: Auckland NZ
Picture(s) would be helpful.

I am not very good at loading them myself having only ever managed to get a link to a Snapfish album to work properly. While that is effective enough others have managed to put 'in-line' images in their posts - an impressive technological achievement which I would like to be able to emulate !

If 'bodging' it with something does prove necessary it would be wise to take advice from other owners more experienced in these matters regarding what to bodge it with because some materials do not bond well to the polyethylene these hulls are made from. Alternatively a simple plastic weld may be all that is required.

...pictures first though !


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:53 pm
Posts: 371
Location: S.E. Florida
posting pictures help a great deal for those that can assist you in your problems.

Photobucket.com is and easy photo hosting site that makes it a breeze to load pictures onto the forum. When you upload a picture there it is assigned a series of links. Placing your cursor over a pic the links appear below it and click on the IMG link and the necessary image link address is automatically copied to your clipboard, just paste it here in your post where you want your pic to be.

The test forum is a good place to practice posting.


Revo

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:56 am 
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Revo, Is it possible to attach pictures that are already on my computer? In this reply, there is an Img box in the upper right-hand corner. When you scoll to it, it says-Insert image-how do you use that?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2157
Location: Maui, Hawaii
You have to "post" the picture on a picture site like http://www.photobucket.com/. Then you can link the images here.

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http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:41 am 
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stobbo, Try this link- http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... ert003.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1866
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
I can see why you would be concerned treespec! :shock:
Image
It seems Hobie have changed the design of the mast tube. Your pic shows very thin plastic surrounding the tube. Nowadays the mast tube screws in and sits over a nub moulded into the hull. Your pic looks to be of a scupper tube with the black mast tube inside.
I would be talking to a dealer first. I realise the boat is way out of warranty but Hobie have excellent warranty support and that looks to me like it is a fault from new. There is not enough plastic in that scupper tube.
Failing that Roadrunner reports great success with Scotchweld DP8010. Read about it here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11245&hilit=dp+8010


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:44 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 484
Location: Auckland NZ
Hi there Treespec,

Yes I too, can see why you might be concerned however what your photo shows is a different installation from the one in my Adventure hull: in my boat the black mast tube is near enough fully visible i.e. there is no hull-plastic coloured sheathing round it... which leads me to question if the hole in the covering round your mast means that you have LESS covering than you should have (i.e.a weaker installation) or whether the existence of any hull-plastic coloured covering over the black mast tube means, in fact, that you have MORE covering than you should have (and therefore most likely a more robust installation).

My Adventure hull is not a new one, not sure of the exact age because I bought it second hand (I suspect ~2006) and I am no kind of authority on Hobies' construction methods, but I am pretty certain that the Outback and another Adventure that owned in the past both had a visible black mast base tube inside the boat. So I think it would be useful for you to get some advice from someone at Hobie (Matt Miller, for example) as to whether there's any problem or cause for concern with your particular boat. It may be as simple as someone not removing some of the (normally) waste plastic moulding from inside the boat during the mast-base installation process... in which case the upshot may be that you actually have a stronger mast-base installation than is to be found in the "average" boat...


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:01 pm
Posts: 8
Roadrunner's thread was a huge help! Hobie should note! I am planning to gently peel off the loose plastic from the black mast pvc. Will post pics.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:01 pm
Posts: 8
Hi Everyone, Decided I needed a better way to handle kayak, so installed 2 s.s. grab bars on the sides. Now I need to know what to use for chaulking on the hardware. Silicone?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1866
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Silicon seems to be what Hobie use as you can see it on my Adventure front hatch clips. I used silicon to seal around some extra hatches I added. Seems to work OK. It doesn't stick but acts like a gasket.
When drilling holes I use a bit a couple of sizes smaller and then use a thread tap, the same size as the fastenings, as a drill bit. I always through bolt and have large washers on the inside.
Regarding handles have you seen these posts by, once again, you know who! :wink:
Such great ideas that Hobie did take note of! 8)
viewtopic.php?t=7577
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8813
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9077


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 484
Location: Auckland NZ
I have used SikaFlex to seal hatches etc on my Hobies.

There are a number of different versions of this product e.g. "Sealant" "Adhesive" "Adhesive Sealant" & w.h.y. I think the version I found most effective was 291 but can't promise that I have the number right - either way I found the non-adhesive ("Sealant" only) version to be the least effective (more like conventional domestic silicone sealant than the other products in their line-up) and the ones with adhesive in their titles very good indeed. It comes in various colours: I have used black exclusively on my Hobies as it matches the hatch colour.

They advertise the product as Marine Sealant & I can vouch for the fact that once applied it does provide an incredibly resilient seal - it is flexible but tough (unlike silicon - which is quite soft), highly UV resistant and seems unaffected by salt (or fresh) water.

SikaFlex is NOT a gap sealer: you can't squirt into a gap like you can with silicon - you have to apply it in situations where you have a surface to be mated to another surface with the required seal between them (e.g. hatch flanges to deck cutout).

If you get it right it really does make a very good permanent weatherproof seal. It is expensive but personally I wouldn't use anything else as a marine sealant & have done all my Hobie twist & stow hatch-flange-to-deck joints with it.

Having said all that I now feel I must give a bit of additional advice based on personal experience before you go rushing out & goop up your pride & joy with it.

Be warned, that if you decide to use this product, application can get veeeery messy indeed if you are not very organised and methodical.

Until it sets Sikaflex is as goopy as silicon but incredibly tacky, sticks like the proverbial sh*t to a blanket and can only be cleaned up with a rag soaked in meths (aka wood alcohol). It has a tendency to get EVERYWHERE if you are not very careful.

I advise you to have a lot of unused clean-up rags and meths ready to hand before you start and somewhere to put down your goop gun where the drips from the goop nozzle can be caught; even then you need to be very careful to keep your hands clean as you go and not to leave any drips lying around (thus reducing the possibility of finding Sikaflex hand and foot prints everywhere later). THIS PRODUCT SHOULD NOT BE USED BY OR IN THE PRESENCE OF MINORS.

The best approach I have found is as follows:
Before you start:
- Put on your worst clothing.
- set up some kind of Sika-lock (similar to an airlock) between your work environment and the outside world - a Sika firewall is another way to think of it
- Practise making up the exact assembly you want several-many times beforehand so that you are 100% confident that you can put the components together right first time every time before you start - almost the worst thing you can do is to dis-assemble an un-set sikaflex coated joint.
- Be ready to clean up every small drop, smear, of raw product as you go, especially on your hands, feet, work tools and porous surfaces. Fence-off and leave large dollops to go off 80% before touching them unless they are going to mark a surface.
- Many people who are familiar with other brands will expect to be able to wipe excess goop away; I suggest you try not to do this as a first measure with Sikaflex - First put down your goop gun out of the way so that you don't accidentally bump into it/step on it etc. Now lift as much of the excess off as you can with any blade-tool that is suitable before wiping the spot and area clean with a meths soaked rag - or rags !
- Don't bother with plastic gloves - they are no match for this stuff !

When ready to go for it:
- Practise the assembly again, then
- Apply a bead big enough that you can be pretty confident of achieving a seal when assembled but not so much that you are going to have masses of it oozing out of the joints when you tighten the assembling bolts. Try to do this in one go/motion & try not to throw the stuff around more than you have to. Try to get it right first time because the last thing you want to do is to get too little on the components so that you have to take them apart to re-goop them.
- Assemble the components and part tighten them down which should get the stuff squeezing out of the joints - but not too much. At this point, so long as you have not really over-gooped the joints you should have a reasonably tight closure between the components (80-90%, perhaps) and some goop squeezing out of the gap between them as a bead along the gap.
- Now, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT, do not touch the excess goop (unless there really is loads in which case things are going to start to get messy) leave the goop to go off a bit so that it loses most of its stickiness, then clamp the joint up fully (more goop should squeeze out).
- Let the goop go off almost all the way (It must not be sticky and must be 'set' all the way through - if your first efforts to remove excess result in messy clean up you probably have not let it go off enough).
- Once it is off enough you should be able to remove the excess as follows: first, cut along the line where you want to the excess to come away; then lift the excess bead off as best you can in one piece; then go over the area where you have removed the excess with a meths-soaked rag to remove any residue.
- Get everything as clean as you want it to be using meths rags and elbow grease before the product has achieved 100% set.

Once you have finished:
- Lock the job away so that nobody will be tempted to go & poke thier fingers into it, you included - for 24 hours.
- Now, unless you have such a facility inside your firewall pass through the firewall removing your shoes as you go and then, without touching/brushing any handles, surfaces or switches, go into a well-lit, fully-tiled room equipped with a full-length mirror, strip to the buff turning your clothes inside out and putting them into a plastic bag as you go and then turn round slowly in front of the mirror looking for any little bits of Sika that you weren't aware of, cleaning them up as you go.
- When you think you are finished get a buddy to check you all over.

Do not be tempted to return through the firewall for a full 24 hours.

... :oops: :wink: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning sailor
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:01 pm
Posts: 8
Stobbo, Did you see my pics on photobucket? The reason I put non-flex handles on the upper sides, was to be able to lift my yak over-head and they're sturdier. Does this SikaFlex fit in a regular chaulk gun? And would wearing nitrile gloves help protect hands?


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