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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:13 am 
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srm wrote:
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What rule are you citing here? I was on port tack, (apparently) and he came up on the leeward side, so it sounds like he did everything you're telling me, but I've heard from others that He's not allowed to not let me finish... Thanks


If you were both on the same tack and he came from clear astern and then established an overlap to leeward, then as the windward boat, you must keep clear (Rule 11). HOWEVER, since he established the overlap to leeward from clear astern, he is only allowed to sail as high as his proper course (Rule 17), which in this case would be the layline to the finish line (committee boat). He is not allowed to take you higher than that.

If you were both on the same tack and he was clear ahead and then you tried to pass him on his windward side, you must keep clear and he is allowed to take you as high as head-to-wind.

Once you both reach the three boatlength circle (around the committe boat or pin end of the finish line), Rule 18 kicks in. If you have an inside overlap, he must give you room.

There is no rule that specifically says "one boat must allow another boat to finish" but the rules put certain limitations on how boats can alter their course in the vicinity of other boats. What I gather from your description, he tried to pass you to leeward and then take you up above the committe boat and prevent you from finishing. He can't do that. He can take you up to the layline of the committee boat (his proper course) but then when you get to the 3 boat length circle, he would have to give you room to finish as long as you have an overlap.

sm


2009-2012 rules change

Rule 17.2 (On the Same Tack; Proper Course) has been deleted.
This means that a windward boat or a boat clear ahead no longer has a proper course limitation when sailing near other boats. She can sail below her proper course if she wishes, for instance to make it more difficult for a boat astern to pass or establish an inside overlap nearing a mark. Windward boats must still keep clear of leeward boats under rule 11 (On the Same Tack, Overlapped).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:46 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Tom Machette wrote:
2009-2012 rules change

Rule 17.2 (On the Same Tack; Proper Course) has been deleted.
This means that a windward boat or a boat clear ahead no longer has a proper course limitation when sailing near other boats. She can sail below her proper course if she wishes, for instance to make it more difficult for a boat astern to pass or establish an inside overlap nearing a mark. Windward boats must still keep clear of leeward boats under rule 11 (On the Same Tack, Overlapped).


Not talking about a windward boat sailing below her proper course (old rule 17.2). I'm referring to Rule 17 which is still in effect and essentially states that a LEEWARD boat may not sail ABOVE her proper course if she established her overlap from clear astern. This means that someone cannot sail up from behind you, establish an overlap to leeward, and then take you up above their proper course (like "to the moon" as was referred to in some earlier posts). From the original poster's explanation, it sounds to me like this is what his competitor tried to do.

Again, it all depends on how the overlap was established. If you try to pass another boat to leeward from clear astern, you can only take the other boat up as high as your proper course (while the overlap exists). If you try to pass another boat to windward from clear astern, the other boat can take you up to head to wind.

Old Rule 17.2 was redundant and unnecessary because a windward boat is already required to keep clear of a leeward boat regardless of whether the windward boat is sailing above, on, or below her proper course.

sm


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:52 pm 
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So he didn't establish a overlap to windward but to leeward???

In that case you needed to defend you position BEFORE he established the overlap. As he was approaching you needed to head down hard and force him to your windward side!!! As he establishes a overlap on your windward side then you can luff him up.

There is a basic rule of tactics: stay between the next mark and your compitition behind you ....

Or you could have headed up ... excellerating and gaining seperation .... and then jybed onto Starboard .... this would give you starboard rights vs his port rights .... aim right at him, hailing Starboard ... he would then have to jybe also or duck you stern .... if he goes to "duck" jybe again to keep him on your windward side, staying between him and the finishline ... if he jybes onto starboard he should be on your windward side ... luff him up and drive him past the end of the finishline and then jybe back onto port driving for the line ... he would have had to jybe behind you, trailing you to the finishline.

Now these tactics I'm discribing are close quarters "knife fighting" tactics and require skilled "boat handling" and crew work!!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Except.. A boat tacking or gybing has no rights, Until the sail is filled on the other side, and even once that happens, if you did not give the overtaking boat enough time to avoid a collision after you established Right of Way, you could still be at fault..

I once made the mistake of trying to cover an over taking boat who was on starboard, by gybing to port ( too close) Thinking.. that a an overtaking boat has no rights... Hmmm...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:13 pm 
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And really the only time the comitte boat is NOT an obstruction, is at the start, and this is to prevent "Barging"

Someone coming up right below someone at the committee end, and calling room to tack. In this instance the windward boat can call NO ROOM, and just take you off.

You can push someone up above proper course only before the gun goes off, Once the gun goes off you better be clear of the committee boat on your proper course, or your in a world of hurt.

At least this is my understanding.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:39 am 
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Its great you guys can give so much info but you missed the initial statement that sent chills thru me.......HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TACK HE WAS ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the rules in the world will not help if you do not know basics. If he didn't know what tack he was on he could not possible know what, if any rights he had. This guy needs to learn some basics before he hurts himself or someone else.

I have been there and done that! My first race I thought the way the wind was blowing over the boat dictated whether I was on port or starboard. I had no idea it was as simple as which side of the boat I was seated. Once you know the basics you can then start adding the pieces of tactics together.

My best advice when confronted in a race is to tack away if you are unsure, avoidance is a good technique!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:23 am 
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ncmbm wrote:
My first race I thought the way the wind was blowing over the boat dictated whether I was on port or starboard. I had no idea it was as simple as which side of the boat I was seated.


Your initial understanding of the rule was the correct one-

From the 2009-20012 RRS
Tack, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side.

It has nothing to do with what side of the boat you're sitting on. On a beach cat, 99% of the time the skipper will sit on the windward side, but it's not always the case.

In any event, you are correct, the OP needs to get a better handle on the basic right-of-way rules. We've all been there. A pre-regatta rules seminar would probably be pretty helpful.

sm


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