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 Post subject: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: St.Augustine,Florida
I was wondering have some tried to use squaretop mainsail on H-20 and how boat is performing with it ?
Is there some one sailing H-20 with all aluminum mast ,no comptip and how boat is performing with it ?
Also I'm looking for dagger board for H-20.
Thanks.
Arnis


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
The Hobie 20 is overpowered to begin with - and you want to add sail area to a boat that's been described as "angry"?

Also, the Hobie 20 has always had a Comptip - unless the mast has been replaced with something from another brand of catamaran, there isn't a "non-Comptip" version of the mast.


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:01 am 
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Location: St.Augustine,Florida
I thought that original boat was made with out comptip until somebody touched a power lines with mast and Hobie Cat had to install comptips on all of the boats.
Also thought that square top did not changed sail area sq.ft ,make it wider at a top and narrower at a bottom.
Arnis


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:18 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
arnis wrote:
I thought that original boat was made with out comptip until somebody touched a power lines with mast and Hobie Cat had to install comptips on all of the boats.

Yeah, but that was in 1984. The Hobie 20 wasn't introduced until 1991. Both it and the Hobie 17 have had Comptips from the beginning of production.

arnis wrote:
Also thought that square top did not changed sail area sq.ft ,make it wider at a top and narrower at a bottom.

If you have a sail built like that, you're putting more power into the top of the sail - on a boat that's already overpowered. You're increasing the heeling moment, making the boat even more tender. Square-top sails require a lot of mainsheet tension, which is just going to bend the Comptip. You'd need to figure out how to rig the outhaul, now that the sail's foot is shorter. The mainsheet may not be in the right place, either, although that's fairly easy to fix.

If you want a square top just because it's more modern looking, that's fine - just realize there's no performance benefit from one. In fact, there's probably a performance decrease, AND you'll take a rating hit because of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: St.Augustine,Florida
Just seems like it that boats with squeretop sails are faster in light winds and even in heavy winds. I'm just trying to get as much input on this as I can before I spend money on a new sail. This past weekend I ripped 2 mainsails in 20 -25 mph winds ( they were old) so I 'm looking to buy new one. Just want to make a right decision and yes a squaretop sails do look way cool.
Arnis.


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:04 am
Posts: 853
Location: Clinton Lake Kansas
Arnis, sorry to hear you blew up two sails (Steeplechase by chance?) If it had been me, I'd have left a 20 on the beach, not knowing whether the wind may increase.

Faster in light winds?!?! My son and I were always double-trapped in just shy of 10 mph wind (320 #'s). The boat was always moving when 16 sailors wondered why we were called onto the course. If you're not racing class, you can ask Chip at Whirlwind about a square top, but I was always uncomfortable on our 20 in anything over 18-20 mph, WAY too much sail (but I'm a wuss! :oops: ).

Matt called it "angry"...I called it an "overpowered monster"

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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:33 am 
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Location: St.Augustine,Florida
Yes it did happen during a Steeplechase race . First sail delaminated after boat flipped few times and second sail we lost while we were under way maybe we did downhauled too much and we ripped of head plate of a main.
Arnis


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:58 am
Posts: 575
Location: Knoxville, TN
Arnis,

With anything other than a class-legal Hobie built sail, you'll eliminate yourself from the most fun racing there is: class racing against other Hobie 20s. I just finished my first season with my new-to-me 12 year old boat. I too need to replace old sails. I wouldn't think of buying anything other than class-legal sails. Hobie sails will be a little pricier, but you'll have a top quality sail made for your boat that will open the door to competitive class racing. Besides, as the other old salts point out, a square top isn't going to provide you a performance advantage anyway. FYI, Hobie can make custom colored sails if you want something other than white. You'll have to stick with the color palett in their brochure. I think that's going to be red, white, blue, yellow and gray.

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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:19 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
MVD wrote:
FYI, Hobie can make custom colored sails if you want something other than white. You'll have to stick with the color palett in their brochure. I think that's going to be red, white, blue, yellow and gray.


The palette is different for the 20's, since they use a completely different material than the sails for the 14, 16, 17 and 18. You have to work through a dealer to find out what the available colors are.

There is a fairly large group of Hobie 20s racing one-design out of Miami / Biscayne Bay. John McKnight is the contact for them - can't find his e-mail right now, but you can contact him via the Hobie 20 Social Network - http://hobie-20.ning.com/profile/JohnMcKnight?xg


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 81
Yes you can get custom Colored Hobie 20 sails that are class legal but there was only a limited amount of material left when I had mine made last year.

For Hobie 20 masts, there is a rumor here in Division 3 that George Pedrick has a one of a kind hobie 20 mast with carbon fibre comtip that he has used for non-Hobie class races with spinnaker such as the Delta Ditch run.... which a few Hobie 20 sailors have done from Division 3 with spinnakers along with Tiger / F-18 sailors.

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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: St.Augustine,Florida
I'm not particulary interested in custom colors as I'm interested wether should I get square top sail or just a stock sail . As far as color goes all I wan't is plain white . I'm more interested in performance of a boat. Boat is 92 model so I don't want to hurt boat too much either . I see these ads by aftermarket sail makers about square top sails for H-20. But I'm worried about comtip since I did broke one 2 years ago and it wasn't comfartable feeling see that thing hanging over my head while we were sailing back to beach.
Since stock sail is expensive and square top is not cheap either I would like to make a best desision.
I'm also looking for dagger board .
Arnis


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Santa Cruz
Get the Hobie Sail hands down. The more stock you keep your boat, the more resale value it has if you were to ever *gasp* sell it. It opens up the market to everyone, racers and non racers.

J

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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:20 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2565
Location: Jersey Shore
The stock Hobie 20 sails are pretty good, I agree. I prefered my original Elliot Pattison main over the Hobie Loft main that I got to replace it. The Hobie Loft main that I had was cut super flat, but that was close to 10 years ago, so the cut has probably changed.

In any case, if you have no intentions of racing one design, and you don't plan to sell the boat in the near future, then I think you're OK considering an alternative sail maker. Why not shop around? I would just make sure that who ever you choose has built Hobie 20 sails before- you don't want to be the guinea pig. Also ask for references, and have a good understanding of their return/re-cut policy before you buy.

Personally, if I didn't race one design, I would definitely at least consider buying new sails from a loft other than Hobie.

As far as square top or not, there is a reason that virtually all modern, high-performance boats use them- they're faster. That said, the mast and sail have to be able to work together to get the performance benefit. If the top 3rd of your sail is a floppy mess, then it'll be slower. And I wouldn't expect a quantum leap in performance either way. The stock 20 sail is no slouch and it already has a fairly broad head (even though it's not technically a square top). All this is why you need to talk to an experienced sail maker that has made Hobie 20 sails if you decide to go that route.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:48 pm
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Location: Sioux Falls SD
Arnis:

Get the factory sail, you really don't need any more power. You get the square top, and you eliminate yourself from any Hobie one-design races. Hobie 20 nationals are in Florida in 2010, and you will need a factory sail for that.

Send me your email, I'd like to get you on the Hobie 20 social site, so you can hang with the rest of the 20 sailors across the US. http://hobie-20.ning.com


Paul Bommersbach

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 Post subject: Re: Squaretop Mainsail.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
Ok, I'm going to put my 2 cents in here...the information that i speak of here is the farthest from scientific and I'll have to say that I'm certainly no class racer or racer at all for that matter, but hopefully it will be worth something to someone.
To start, buying stock sails is probably the smartest move considering it will keep your boat class legal and at the same time not aid in the diminish of the resale value of your awesome boat(there are lots of H20 class racers out there or potentials there of).
There are only two H20's at the lake where we sail, one is mine and the other is my friend's. I probably have two and a half years of experience over my buddy in cat sailing. We are both relatively new to the H20 all together.
Even though I don't class race, I would say that I am very critical person when it comes to sail trimming. I watch those tell tales like a hawk and really keep an eye ball on sail shape and laminar flow using a couple sets of tell tales on each sail and of course some leach tales as well, to keep from being over or under sheeted. My buddy is not quite as critical as me yet, and I am positive that he would agree. He's just has a slightly more casual approach and is newer to cat sailing in comparison.
Now, my buddy and I have sailed our boats side by with stock sails and single handed. And once again I'm sure he would agree, that using my more developed experience, I have caught him on the lake and then proceeded to pass on the same course and heading once or twice all in casual fun...once again only because of the experience that I have over him on the 20 and in cat sailing in general.
However, towards the end of the season, Mel had purchased some new sails from Chip @ Whirlwind after deciding that he wanted to pump up the looks and performance of his boat to some degree. The main being a pentex square top radial and the jib a pentex radial cut, like the stock jib but different material.
Naturally we had to put them to a test, one like we've done before...Flying in formation!
On the second or third outing with his new AWESOME looking sails, we spent about two or three hours following each other on the lake trapped out, on various courses mostly close hauled, footing and reaching as well. On this day it was warm and the wind was pumping an average of about 10-12mph to my recollection (perfect for single handing a 20). However... something was different! Now, let me just say that when we sail together, we sail close enough , usually, to where if we yell, we can hear each other. On this beautiful day... the very best I could do was only keep up with Mel. I don't think I ever could close the gap and on certain instances he would pull me and there was nothing I could do about it. All there was for me to do was to become even more critical to the action of all my indicators trying adjust and re-adjust to try to make up some ground. It came down to me simply just cutting the course slightly, once in a while enough to keep up and stay with in a reasonable distance. At this time, Mel had no tell tales at all, no yarn and no wind indicator.
I do realize that there are many other factors to this equation and that some were not talked about and also not even considered while in action on these two boats.
Does there appear to be a performance difference between Mel's rig and mine considering the before and after bench testing? I would have to agree.
The other Question in my mind would be..if it were possible to take identical H20's, put identical sailors on them with the rigs I referred to earlier in varying wind conditions and on the same course ...would there be an advantage with the squaretop rigged sailor's boat? I believe yes, in most cases. Even in heavier wind! why though? As we've heard others opinions on that a squaretop's center of effort being moved upward some, all the while making the vessel more over powered beyond the half way point up the mast, contributing to being less than a benifet... A PROPERLY CUT and condtionally TUNED squaretop main sail, will handle heavier winds or respond to a "puff" by opening up its top half/third leech or roach to automatically spill some wind(because of the leverage of the cord of the "squaretop"). This action helps to relieve the sudden heeling moment due to the extra area way up high which makes the squaretop not a hinder, but a helpful feature in most cases.
I do have experience with a mylar squaretop on an H18 of my own. The main thing I noticed, even though I was less experienced then, was the feeling that the boat heeled less in any case or that the boat felt as though it calmed down or "was calmer", compared two the stock sails used prior, especially when the wind started to peek.
In conclusion, I think that if a squaretop in general were a design of decreased efficiency, you wouldn't see them all over the world. I realize that this is not free efficiency though, It takes know how, a good design, and the ability to properly tune it for the conditions to get extra help out of it in most situations.
What I mentioned above is what seemed to be blatantly clear at the time of the comparison. On the other hand, If there was to be considerably more wind speed that day and lets say that all mechanical settings were left the same for both boats. Mel's boat may have been a CRAZIER ride!! BUT, we all make adjustments to the conditions more or less. I still think he would of had the advantage and using tell tails would only add to his benefit of course.
Again, this was just un-scientific experience between some average joes in reasonable conditions. This opinion is only worth what it cost you.
Get the factory sails if you see your self selling or class racing in the near future. Get a trick square top from Chip for max performance or for pleasure sailing. I've had personal experience with two sets of his sails. I was very impressed both times, in the quality of craftsmanship and materials used, not to even mention that both times that the sails were ordered, they arrived in exactly 3 weeks! Also, check for your self on prices from other manufactures. He will amaze you there too.

I will keep my stock sails always, in case I ever sell my boat. You can bet as soon as my paychecks stop getting smaller, I will be ordering a new set for my self. I feel as though I've experienced the difference in more than one way..and I'm sold on the performance!...Obviously!!!

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