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 Post subject: Fishing Under Sail
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
At long last have the sail, dagger board, large rudder, and Sidekick.

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Note I ran the main sheet under the tank well rear bungie cord per Roadrunners traveling block tests. It slipped nicely. Will add block later.

This was a test run on a slow day. But several preliminary conclusions.

Locating the rod in the aft rod holder positions while trolling on either tact did not interfere with the main sheet , or vice versa. Just make sure any rod leash is clear.

I have a rocket holder fwd on the port side. This required a starboard tack to avoid interference.

Repositioning the rod may create problems between the rod leash and sheet depending on your rig.

Purpose of rig with Sidekick:

1. I intend to try to toll at 5+ mph sustained with wind, to get lure action unavailable at lower speeds. I envision upon a strike (talking pelagic here) :

a. Immediate luffing of the mainsail.

b. Setting hook, and turning yak toward fishes run.

c. Freeing one handfor a sec to furl sail use Choke's method

d. Getting initial run stabilized as reel drag increases to hold line, but fish pulls yak.

e. The tricky part. Putting rod in holder and unstepping mast (bottom faces forward). Where Sidekick stability helps. I inseted bottom of mast in loop attached to fwd hatch (CRS who posted that)and let the other end drap over stbd yaku.

2. If caught out as wind kicks up, I want to be able to tack up wind if necessary to get a homeward bound course. Choke has implied furling the sail really helps and with Sidekick to handle gusts, think I'll be safe up to 25 knots from the trades. About the most I'll see without some sort of storm.

3. I want to cover long distances without killing myself. So sailing pleasantly in 10-15 knots with Sidekick to prevent any capsizes from gusts relieves some worries.

I'll leave #2 & 3 above for the sail forum, and try to stick to #1 for future reporting purposes here. When I get a hookup should be interesting. :lol:

If there is sucess, I may try a green stick. :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:05 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I have solved the first part. Immediate luffing of the sail.

What I did. (Pic this weekend)

I inserted the main sheet through the clew and threaded it back in to form a loop on one side of the clew's grommett.

Using a cheap piece of clothesline (aha notice cheap) I inserted a piece through the loop.

I then drew the main sheet tight, the loop pinching on the piece of clothesline.

A simple yank on the clotheline followed by one on the sheet pulled the latter loose letting the sail luff.

Wala!!!! Dan's instent release block!! For a fraction of $30 plus cost for the latter.

I subsequently modified the above to include a double piece of clothesline formed by simply tieing an end loop on one end.

Furling and unshipping. Next I had a buddy time me unhinging the downhaul bungiecord, unshipping the mast, FURLING it by hand, and stowing it with the butt end through a fwd loop on the Adventure hatch, the top hung over the Sidekick yaku, and secured the whole rig by using the Adventure built in bungie cord on the stbd side for such purpose. This took about 11 seconds so I may not need Choke's furling rig.

The time all made possible by the stability of the Sidekick ama.

I'm assuming I'll have that much time available when I get the fish towing the yak, and I have re-inserted the rod in the rod holder.

Hopping for a hookup and subsequent first hand report of complete procedure.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:59 am 
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Way to push it, Dan.

Following with interest. Can't wait to get my AI and try something similar with large striped bass in freshwater (slower speeds) and Southern California saltwater pelagics. ( faster speeds).

Fish on!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:03 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Yesterdays' results.

Finally enough wind to try some different lures.

But no action except for a miserable stick fish hit on the way in. Did suffice for an actual test of pulling the clothesline quick release. Worked like a charm.

BTW on the port tack I can use my fwd port tube rod holder. Just angled it out further.

I'm certain a big ono will yank it flat anyway !

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:54 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Finally decent wind.

Today I started the grand experiment in anticipation the fighting fish one is going to prove successful.

I am going to try to implement a Green Stick.

For those that want to toss rocks go elsewhere as I need help.

However if your into any kind of tuna species you might want to first read about the consumption of cephalopods ( squids, etc) by tuna species..

6.1.4. Diet and feeding behavior of yellowfin, skipjack and bigeye

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/T0081E/T0 ... tm#ch6.1.4

You will then understand why commercial fisherman use a Green stick rig to make squid baits dance on the surface, and why.

If you have access to Jim Rizzuto's Fishing Hawaiian Style Vol. 2 it has one of the best descriptions pages 93-96. You might find a decent description on the web, but I haven't had much luck other than

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pi ... 250048.htm

The kayak version will be scaled down and my stick cost me about five minutes time to make.

Basically what you do is troll a "bird" a device that power boats can pull that is quite large and throws up a lot of water. Our is much smaller and works under sail.

The device thus keeps a line strung from a pole (the stick) very tight, the birds primary purpose.

From this one dangles artificial squids at different intervals so they literally "dance" on the water, that is just touch the water once in awhile, not trolled they hang vertically.

Commercial guys just hang 600# test off the main line and then the fish is hooked crank in automatically. Charters hang the leaders from individual poles off the mainline with a breakaway device, most often a rubber band.

Kayak version #1 used one squid from the one rod. That's the closest to the bird. The others are dummies with 4# test leaders and no hooks. a fish normally takes the one closest to the bird (according to my neighbor who is commercial).

I ran the bird line from the top of the mast. I had duct taped an old Penn towards the bottom and jury rigged an eyelet at the mast peak.

Knowing the mast was 10 feet and I had a 100 feet of bird line out I could easily compute the length of the leader to rubber band at distance X from the bird for my one rod line (30# test). Like wise I could compute the proper leader length for the dummies.

All lengths carefully constructed,loops tied in the bird line at apprpriate distances, and homemade bird off I went.

MANY problems, but I got it to work for 5 minutes or so.

(to be continued)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:25 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Prior to getting underway I threaded the bird line from the reel through the guide at the top of the mast. Then furled the sail, securing with a light rubber band. Underway with the mast up.

Fishing with bait using chin weighted opelu as there was no wind at the start.

Eventually grew impatient. Took off bait rig and put on hootchie (squid).

Looked something like:

------ ++++------------------------------------XXXXX .........< 3 feet>...............******

... Rod Line

+++++ Swivel

-----------------------------------------60lb Leader

XXXXX Rubber Band & Trout Snap Hook

------- Leader

***** Hootchie


Tossed bird over side and let out bird line from reel.

First mistake. I can see loops I made earlier floating by over my head.

Reeled in homemade bird. Let out again letting line run through fingers. Loop came up for first squid. Attached above rig with snap hook to loop in bird line at 30 feet of line out (loop distance from bird previously measured). Let more line out

Had to also let out line from rod reel. Quickly became evident there was a problem ensuring both reels let out same amount of line. Possible to solve using dental floss markers?

Attached two dummy squids (no hooks) at next two loops. Looked like:

XXXXXXXX...............................................................................XXXXXXX
Trout snap hook with swivel 4# test Squid

Length of the above varied with loop location. 4-5 feet.

Without going into gory details i had problems with homemade bird.

One it sunk too much.

Two it didn't go sideway like face I slanted (directly behind you is a killer on the neck)

Peddled like hell. Got bird to surface throwing up small wave. Terrible time adjusting bird line and rod line to match. Squids OK, but trolling in water not dancing.

Simplify. Took weight off bird, Eliminated two dummies.

Carefully let lines back out. Some success with hootchie dancing in air. I was on the right track.

But difficult. Bird problems. Reeled in and did some more bird adjustments. Made another mistake.

Swivel on bird was eliminated in adjustment. Got some preliminary "dancing" before line twisted up.

Called it quits as the wind came up too late.

Why too late?

You really need way on to let the bird out an keep it's line taught. Difficult doing everything else and pedaling.

Another problem was the mast height. Too short. I have another solution to increase the stick height by five feet. That will provide a steeper angle for the bird line and improve dancing action. More on this later.

My homemade bird needs a lot of tinkering. I am looking at a cheap lure bird tomorrow. But I really need one that will ride 30-45 degrees off to the side so I can see the dancing action (and the hits!!). Anyone know of a model for sale.? I'm searching the web, but haven't found anything other than directly behind..

Those familiar with commercial rigs know there is a down-haul of the bird line that aids in making the squids dance. Pulling it down lets them just touch water, then you let it go and they jump up.

A down haul woud be a bit much for a yak. But previously for a skipping lure rig I tried hooking the line to the pedal dive mechanism. That provide ~14 inches of pull and release. I figure if I add that it's not too complicated.

Then the bird line will experience a shortening lifting the hootchies slightly, and then let them fall again. Probably only one or two inches. so I'd like to at least double this. Would some sort of pulley arrangement work doubling the line distance pulled during the Mirage Drive stroke? What do I use?

From experienced fisherman I also need some input on the use of Green Sticks and their success without the benefit of fishing in a porpoise school.

Also what other species feeds big on cephalopods?

You guys fishing for Marlin will get a run for your money with a 100lb ahi exploding on this rig!! I think it's doable with just the small sail and Sidekick, but the Island should really make this system function.

BTW. With a good wind finally was able to try trolling some of the sailing lures mentioned elsewhere.If you forgot these try:

http://tinyurl.com/lr9qs

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:09 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Maui
Dan-How many fish have you caught off your kayak so far(talking phelagics here)?

Aloha -Fred-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Six from May to end of July. Mostlymahi mahi.

Probably lost more than that for one reason or another although a big fight at South Point was probably an ulua.

Been gone almost all of August. Fishing stinks now and I have a hard time grabbing minutes with coffee coming in.

You know the old saying a boat is a bottomless hole for your money? My wife claims the same thing about the yaks. Only the hole is narrower in diameter.

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Last edited by AlohaDan on Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:09 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Maui
We catch plenty of doradofish(mahi) and yellowfin tuna(Ahi) by trolling feathers behind our outrigger canoe, Hobie 16 or kayaks on a hand line, sometimes we use a rod and reel. Ulua we catch off the rocks from shore.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Interesting day at South Point which is generally way too windy to fish with a yak. An Adventure with Sidekick is a different story. See Sidekick Rocks thread on kayak forum..

Fairly moderate to strong winds at start. Maybe Beaufort 4 in gusts. Put in and sailed down wind to light house. Switched from trolling a squid lure to dead opelu (mackerel scad) with chin weight and after having a couple taken, hooked up an uku (grey snapper). They fight pretty good with a lot of head shaking and would have been more interesting on 10# test then my 30# pelagic rig.

Point of story was that the immediate luffing trick worked. I did not have my furling dvice rigged yet, but was easily able to place rod in holder and have sufficient time to dismount mast, furl sail and stash on stbd side. Good practice on small fish (~8lbs).

HOWEVER... ~10 minutes later a large strike; made sure I had hook set and luffed sail. That's all I had time to do as this guy ripped off 2-300 feet of line. I had the drag setting on my Penn 330 up to the stop button, and was cosidering releasing that to go even higher when we arrived at the kayak being towed point. Slapped rod in rocket tube holder and went for sail dismount . Mistake! Fish went on another burst sidewise to boat, yanking rocket tube over (hate those things-you can never get them tight enough-should have a flush mount) and pulling more line out.

Sail flapping in my face.

Finally got control, fortunately without fish crossing bow with sail still up. Dismounted sail and stashed as with uku, and settled down for sleigh ride. Able to keep fish at bow using rudder and occassionally pedals. (For those that followed my much earlier posts on KFS I'm now more prone to fighting the fish with the rudder down versus up)

As fish wore down from towing effort, started pumping in line.

Turned out it was an ulua (giant trevally) about 35 lbs. Might have released him, but serious gut hook up from swallowing hook and promise to local family I would produce an ulua for their table spelled keeper.

Big lesson here. Gotta get that furling device installed for larger fish. At least with sail furled would have a chance to pass rod around front of mast if fish crossed bow. With sail flapping all over the place much harder do to do so as you also have to pass it under the sail while getting your face slapped. Fishes will know when your vulnerable and do the wrong things! :D :D

With white caps showing all over the place and increased wind making it difficult to keep control over sail, headed home. The ability to tackup wind with Sidekick is a big safety factor for the Adventure in comparison to paddle only yaks IMHO. Interesting the wind and whitecaps chased in a small skiff with twin outboards also.

So I think the ability to troll with sail and still fight a large fish as been somewhat proven, at least for my technique level (which is probably limited)

Still working on the Greenstick problem. Reel for line recovery needs overhaul.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 822
Location: Tallahassee, FL
WTG Dan,
Dang, but nothing seems to be easy in trying to sail and go after large pelagics in a yak! I applaud your perseverence, but I would guess that each large fish will present its own unique problems when trying to sail.

AND don't get too over-confident in the sidekicks ability to prevent flipping. I have seen far too many Hobiecats turned turtle while sailing in moderate breezes--and they are a real pain to get righted without some help from a powerboat.

In fact, my one and only flip occurred last summer while sailing the Sport. About 15-20 mph ambient winds, when about a 40 mph microburst from a distant rain squall hit me broadside and I was on my beam ends before I even knew what was happening. And that was with my RAM rocket launcher/PVC arms fully extended and tightened down (I thought) pretty securely on the ball mount. As you noted above, the RAM mount hand screw will not hold if there is sufficient pressure on it! Have a blast, keep those leashes on, and keep those great reports coming in! Thanks.
Best,
Dick

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:42 pm 
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Last edited by Apalach on Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Thanks Apalach

Fish photos on Fishing Images. Here are some shots (taken with $10 underwater disposable camera) that might help some of the previous verbal descriptions.

Quick release for luffing using clothesline (repeat)

Image

The guide for the Green Stick line at the top of the mast.

First pic shows an eyelet that was inserted into a very SMALL block of wood drilled out to accept the eyelet. It still split so superglued, wrapped with thread, then a layer of duct tape. The block was meant to slip under the sail strap that keeps the sail at the top of the mast.

Image

There is a piece of cord attached for securing it to the mast, thusly

Image

Forgot to rotate the next shot. shows a 50 year old Penn reel pressed into service to handle Green Stick main line. I just taped it to mast.

Image

Unfortunately rusty bearings died (even Penn's don't last forever) so it's been replaced with a Wally $11 special spinning reel. Will see how that works, but use hose clamps to secure it.

Line runs directly from reel to the guide at the top of the mast.

Have worked up a home made planning board so will test rig again this weekend, if there is enough wind.

Ya have to bear with me on photos, both quality and length of time to post.

I have hopes Santa will bring me an Pentax Optio 20W

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:08 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Intresting experience last week.

Wanted to go deep with my deep diver due to warm surface water.

Was trolling under sail, and was going a tad too fast for the diver to stay down. Instead of furling the sail a bit, tossed the drift chute over.

Slowed the yak down to the right speed and she really held steady down wind. Might prove to be a useful technique getting safely home riding breaking swells so you don't go broadside.. See Royce's Sailing Illustrated Vol 1 Use of Drogue.

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 Post subject: Any updates?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:24 pm 
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Any updates?


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